DEBATERS
Ron Halber is CEO of the Jewish Community Relations Council of Greater Washington.
Jonathan Jacoby is the president of The Nexus Project, a watchdog group that works to combat antisemitism while upholding civil rights and democracy.
INTERVIEW WITH JONATHAN JACOBY
Can Jewish groups work with the Democratic Socialists of America?
Yes—with an “if.” Jewish groups can work with the DSA if it is willing to engage with them. It’s OK to engage with people with whom we disagree on political principles when we also have shared goals. That doesn’t mean we’re endorsing them.
Some people say we should not engage at all with the DSA unless it changes its position on Zionism, because they consider that position to be antisemitic. I don’t make that presumption. I know that there are people in the DSA who are not antisemitic. To say that anti-Zionists in the DSA are ipso facto antisemitic is as reductive and absolutist as saying that all Zionists are anti-Arab.
One caveat: There are anti-Zionists in the DSA and elsewhere on the left who are willing to engage with people who believe in Israel’s right to exist—but not with Jews who hold that view. That’s crossing a line into antisemitism. I’m willing to engage in a conversation with them about why certain statements and actions are antisemitic. But I struggle to engage, even around common goals, with someone who is essentially denying my right as a Jew to have a certain view.
To be clear, I’m not saying I believe, as some do, that Zionism is an integral part of Jewish identity. But a Zionist Jew shouldn’t have to check that part of themselves at the door to engage with the DSA.
What about working with DSA officeholders and candidates?
New York Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is a member of the DSA who understands antisemitism and has articulated, in the progressive movement, the importance of fighting it. We would be fools not to engage with her. Another New York representative, Democrat Ritchie Torres, was not deterred from working with New York Mayor Zohran Mamdani, a DSA member, to secure a huge investment in broadband to the Bronx.
You can get a lot more done when you’re sitting at the table.
On the other hand, I would not engage with anyone who promotes antisemitic ideas, like the DSA-aligned organizer Carmella Charrington, who won an election to be the Brooklyn Democratic district leader. In fact, when she shared antisemitic conspiracies on social media and doubled down when asked about them, DSA leaders disavowed her statements and said there was no room for that in their movement.
Years ago, most Jewish leaders refused to meet with Louis Farrakhan or the Nation of Islam. Would you have done likewise?
I would have refused. Louis Farrakhan was and is an antisemite. I have no interest, and I don’t see any real value, in engaging with antisemites. A friend of mine once asked John Lewis whether he was willing to engage with racists, and he said yes— that as a Christian it was part of his belief system to engage with anyone, to know they might change. I’m not John Lewis. I don’t rise to that level of grace.
Some New Yorkers have urged Jewish groups to boycott Mayor Zohran Mamdani, who is a DSA member. Is that wise?
It’s counterproductive. I understand why there were Jews who opposed Mamdani before the election. But now that he’s mayor, it’s in our interest to work with him. To start the relationship with antagonism and mistrust is a mistake. And if he says that Jewish safety is important, it’s in our interest as Jewish organizations to help him make good on it.
Historically, do you think Jews have done better keeping all the lines open, or drawing boundaries as to whom we will talk to?
Historically, engagement is better for Jews than disengagement or antagonism. There are good reasons to disagree, to oppose, to make that opposition public, to say it loudly. But there are rarely good reasons not to engage. You can get a lot more done when you’re sitting at the table.
Is there any common ground between the DSA’s goals as an organization and American Jewish interests?
Of course, we have some common interests, from healthcare, to housing, to women’s rights, immigrant rights, LGBTQ rights and more. We just might have different ways of getting there.
Is the rise in DSA’s influence driven primarily by its stance on Israel or by its other policy goals?
Its Israel stance has certainly helped it gain a few headlines and marquee wins. But DSA’s rise has more to do with its ability to persuade people that it cares about them and that the old way doesn’t work anymore, that we need a new way of approaching things. It’s not only the DSA that does that; there are other candidates and other political leaders who do it well. San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie has very different politics from Mamdani. But they’ve both shown their constituencies that they don’t live in some political ivory tower and that they care about them.
INTERVIEW WITH ROB HALBER
Can Jewish groups work with the Democratic Socialists of America?
No. Jewish groups cannot work with the DSA as an organization. It doesn’t believe in Jewish self-determination, or in working with any Jewish group that believes Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state. So that pretty much eliminates every school, agency, synagogue and public affairs arm in the Jewish community, left or right, including some of the most progressive.
To work with someone, they have to believe in your legitimacy. Over 85 percent of Jews in the United States believe in a strong, secure, safe, democratic Jewish state, though many disagree with the current Israeli government. My organization, the Jewish Community Relations Council (JCRC), lobbies on the local, state and federal level, so we meet with all sorts of groups—Democrats, Republicans, right-wing, left-wing—unless they hold deeply antisemitic views or oppose the existence of the Jewish state. That encompasses almost everybody except the haters on both sides, and I include DSA among those.
What about working with DSA candidates or officeholders?
JCRC will not have a relationship with the DSA itself, because they demand that we denounce who we are. But we maintain extensive and productive relationships with officials across the political spectrum, including some affiliated with DSA. We’ll meet with anyone in office except an avowed hater. If David Duke had gotten elected to Congress, we would not have met with him.
To work with someone, they have to believe in your legitimacy.
Years ago, most Jewish leaders refused to meet with Louis Farrakhan or the Nation of Islam. Would you have done likewise?
Meet with Farrakhan? I wouldn’t even be in the same building with him.
Some New Yorkers have urged Jewish groups to boycott Mayor Zohran Mamdani, who is a DSA member. Is that wise?
I’ll defer to my New York friends on that. I understand both the dcision to boycott him and the decision to engage with him. Mamdani separates Jews from Israel, and only in a warped mindset can someone divorce the national aspirations of the Jewish people from the Jewish people. I probably would work with him if I were the JCRC director in New York, but I wouldn’t hold back on expressing my anger or that of the community. I don’t think Mamdani’s going to suddenly announce he’s a Zionist. He’s been marinating in antisemitism and anti-Israelism since his youth. But he’s the reality of what the Jewish community must deal with.
Historically, have Jews done better keeping all lines open, or drawing boundaries as to whom we will talk to?
Historically, Jewish organizations have had an open tent, because our community is diverse—geographically, religiously, politically, economically. We can reflect that diversity while still representing the community with commonality and purpose. The JCRC is pro-reproductive freedom, but I would sit down with an organization that isn’t—for example, to see if we can reduce their opposition to a bill. But under the DSA’s utopian and unrealistic vision of America, as described in its party platform, there’d be no bills to negotiate. The Senate would cease to exist, as would the Supreme Court.
Is there any common ground between the DSA’s goals as an organization and American Jewish interests?
If you read the DSA’s platform, you can see they are pushing for a better, more just and equitable society. But their policies are insane; they don’t lead to these outcomes. They’re trying to create a utopian world almost devoid of any human variables. They also want to abolish capitalism. Americans, including most Jews, support many government interventions to help people—Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, food stamps, etc.—but the DSA platform confuses social justice with socialism, a system most Americans have rejected and some have fled.
Is the rise in DSA’s influence driven primarily by its stance on Israel, or by its other policy goals?
The rise of hatred has contributed, but mostly it’s the economic and affordability crisis. The constant pummeling of Israel as a “genocider” in both traditional and social media has helped galvanize DSA support, but it’s not DSA activists’ first, or second or third issue. Maybe their fourth.
If we had a more traditional Republican president, I don’t think the DSA would be gaining as many adherents, because they wouldn’t have Trump as a foil. Voter anger is like water in a balloon: If you squish it and it doesn’t come out one place, it’ll pop out somewhere else. The Democratic grassroots want to hear more outrage and confrontation with Trump, and mainstream Democrats haven’t really provided it. If the Democratic leadership were more vibrant and vocal, the DSA would not be the phenomenon that it is. I predict that in four to six years it will fade into history.
(Top image credit: David Shankbone (CC BY 3.0))